Wampum: Whitewashing the redbashing...

I just learned Aravosis erased all the comments to his racist screed of Friday. Fortunately, I had that window open only a couple of hours ago, and was able to copy them all. They're in the extended entry, should you want to see both the rational position of many of his readers, along with his digging himself deeper and deeper. I guess someone finally convinced him to drop the shovel.

Update: John apprently didn't delete all the comments, just changed the original URL and delinked the comments from Blogger (he kept a link embedded in the post.) I'm curious to see if that embedded link remains over time.

Dump your big bank and credit cards and disinfranchise the international crime syndicate today! (hat tip: www.dunwalke.com; more resources at www.solari.com)
Anonymous | 02.16.07 - 1:11 pm | #

overreacting i see
leeroy | 02.16.07 - 1:15 pm | #

There is only one group of people who can say if the mascot was offensive. The Illini. If they say it is, it is.
dorothy | 02.16.07 - 1:16 pm | #

We're facing a simlar issue at the school I'm at now. The University of North Dakota. We're the Fighting Sioux. Local tribal councils say they are okay with the school using the name, but the NCAA isn't. What to do?
Kage no Kami | 02.16.07 - 1:19 pm | #

Were the Greeks massacred by invading American settlers and was their culture and way of life destroyed by said Americans until not much was left except watered-down, misappropriated, reinterpretations/stereotypes of what it means to be Greek?

NOTE FROM JOHN: Actually, the Greeks weren't allowed to even work in real jobs when we first came over, that's why my relatives had to work on the transcontinental railroad, only "dirty work' was considered acceptable for 'dirty people." The Irish, and many others went through the same thing. I'm not a big fan of comparing whose suffering was worse. And in any case, it's irrelevant. If the mascot pays homage to native Americans, then it's irrelevant if they were once slighted - the mascot pays homage so they lose the argument about it being critical of them.

Edited By Siteowner
E190 | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 1:20 pm | #

FSU got an exemption from the NCAA because the Seminole tribe gave it's support to the name/mascot. FSU works with the Seminoles to make sure the tribe is treated with the respect it deserves and still there are groups who protest (like the American Indian Movement).
How do you spell anonymous | 02.16.07 - 1:20 pm | #

there were nos Illini indians - that's liberal revisionist history. Illinois never had natives living on it's land. The grass was too tall....or something.

When Columbus got lost and ended up on this side of the world, this continent was completely empty. There were no indians at all in fact. A few in New York, but we bought them off. There never were any Illini indians. Anyone who tells you differently is a liberal.
Amerikagulag | 02.16.07 - 1:20 pm | #

John

The problem is that the Chief had sweet-damn-all to do with the actual Indian heritage of the state of Illinois. It was a walking cliche, with Souix regalia, historically and culturally inaccurate. And the vast majority of Illinois' native Americans were run out of the state in the 1830s, so if we want to honor the native heritage of the state, an empty space would do better.

If it were a private entity--the major league baseball club in Cleveland, the NFL team in DC, the Catholic University in South Bend--that's one thing. But my tax dollars support the state university, and I'm against having stereotypes flaunted this way. Native Americans on the U of I campus have been harrassed about this, and that alone should be reason enough to get rid of it.

Bill
bill | 02.16.07 - 1:20 pm | #

I couldn't disagree more! The mascot was an insult to native Americans and the exhausting dance was a characture of native dancing and no better than a minstrel. Native Ameican civil rights organizations condemned it. It would be like the Palistinians adopting the fight heb and having mock rabbis take the court at half time or Old Miss having an Uncle Rhemus half time show. The Professional Organization of Native American Psychologist and Psychiatrists related such shows as attributing to suicide and low self esteme in Indian children. The culture of Illinois that it related to was one of genocide, land grabs and death. As a gay man, I stand with my Native Brothers who say, Please Stop It. Please dont do this to us. To me it is akin to the Snickers issue. If you say you are honoring someone and they say "please, stop, you are hurting me." Why won't you stop!!!!!
vistaguy | 02.16.07 - 1:21 pm | #

Off topic but still major breaking news: Anna Nicole Smith's will will be read in a few minutes. CNN will announce the will news willingly.
UNcensored | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 1:24 pm | #

Off topic but still major breaking news: Anna Nicole Smith's will will be read in a few minutes. CNN will announce the will news willingly.

Is she still dead?
How do you spell anonymous | 02.16.07 - 1:26 pm | #

What about the Snicker ad?
Larry | 02.16.07 - 1:26 pm | #

This is getting ridiculous. The YMCA has a program that my girls and their dad was involved with. It was called Indian Princess. I wonder how long it will be before they have to change their name, too. Like the Fighting Illini, the Native Americans were treated with respect and they had a guy dressed in full Indian Chief mode and they had a beautiful ceremony at the beginning of every year.
2liberal4myowngood | 02.16.07 - 1:26 pm | #

Nicole News is No News
vistaguy | 02.16.07 - 1:26 pm | #

I went to Florida State, and we have similar issues. The use of the name "Seminole," as well as the clothes worn by the mascot Osceola and the gear on the horse he rides, are all approved and endorsed by the Seminole Tribe of Florida. There is an activist in Oklahoma who is a member of the Oklahoma Seminoles who does not approve, however, and brings it up in some fashion every few years (even though the Seminoles of Oklahoma as a body do not object to FSU's symbol and mascot). I understand the issue in general, especially with names like "Redskins," but applied to schools like Illinois or FSU, where the states involved have a strong association with the Indian tribes at issue, I just don't see the offense. Calling a bunch of Catholics "Fighting Irish," on the other hand-- now THAT is offensive.
Jeff in Texas | 02.16.07 - 1:26 pm | #

I agree with dorothy and vistaguy. If Native Americans don't feel honored by such mascots, then get rid of the mascots. It's such a simple thing to do - far easier than reparations for centuries of annhilation and property theft.
Ed Sikov | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 1:27 pm | #

Didn't an Indian school awile back change their mascot to the Whities?
TomsOld | 02.16.07 - 1:27 pm | #

McCain will skip Saturday’s Iraq vote.

AP: Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), “a staunch supporter of sending more troops to Iraq, will skip a Senate vote on the war Saturday to campaign in Iowa while other candidates rearrange their schedules.”
lauren | 02.16.07 - 1:29 pm | #

I grew up in Urbana Illinois -- no, we never referred to ourselves as Illini. But I do remember, as a small child, watching Chief Illiniwek's halftime performance. It was spellbinding. Maybe I was just an impresionable kid -- and it was a long time ago, but it was considered and honor and responsibility to get the Illiniwek gig, and there was nothing that was insulting or mocking about the performance.
Babs in Buffalo | 02.16.07 - 1:29 pm | #

Nicole News is No News
vistaguy | 02.16.07 - 1:26 pm | #

Like it or not, Anna Nicole Smith is major news and will be for months to come. They still must learn who the real father is and the rightfull heir to the fortune her dead hubby left still hasn't been settled. Get used to it because this is going to be spoon fed to us for months.
UNcensored | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 1:30 pm | #

I disagree, Dorothy. I would argue that your argument is what the term "PC" is all about. PC isn't demanding an end to prejudice. It's demanding an end to prejudice when you haven't proven your point. Just because a native American, a Jew, a gay person, a white guy claims to have been slured doesn't mean they've been slurred. You always have the burden to prove your case - it's a burden I've always felt arguing for gay rights. I don't just holler, I prove. And to do otherwise turns one into a whiny special interest - PC - rather than a civil rights movement.
John Aravosis | 02.16.07 - 1:30 pm | #

I never thought of that dance as a parody or minstrel as vistaguy says, but it's a good point.
naschkatze | 02.16.07 - 1:31 pm | #

Meaning no disrespect, allow me to remind you that local discretionary decisions were swept away after the unfortunate misunderstanding of 1861-1865. Federal decisions are local decisions; it's the law since 1865. Smile.
Indigo | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 1:32 pm | #

The reason there were very few Indians here when Columbus arrived is because 90% of them had been killed by DISEASE...spread to them by the Spanish when they arrived, BEFORE Columbus.
prairiedog | 02.16.07 - 1:33 pm | #

"no better than a minstrel" -- in fact, JUST LIKE someone in blackface.
neabinorb | 02.16.07 - 1:34 pm | #

Who care if Native Amreican's are offended anyway???? We have a war against Mars Bars to wage!!!!
The American Public | 02.16.07 - 1:34 pm | #

People have argued that it was a minstral show, but that doesn't mean it was. Joe and I have a favorite term we use about the Bush administration, a phrase that Murtha came up with: Just because they say it doesn't make it so. I'd apply the same here, and in every situation. We proved why the Snickers ad was offensive, because the back-up ads were violent and the players' reactions were full of disgust, not homage, to gays. I simply don't buy the argument being made by native Americans here. And while calling it a minstral show is cute, it doesn't make it so until you prove your point with facts. I don't recall minstral shows being done to pay homage to the proud nature of African-American history in America, leaving the audience with a sense of pride in the role AFrican-Americans paid in their own history.
John Aravosis | 02.16.07 - 1:35 pm | #

So when will a college team have the "Negros" as a mascot? That would be absurd, right? The same should apply to any race of people used as a mascott.
bejammin075 | 02.16.07 - 1:35 pm | #

Hey John,
I didn't know you went to U of I. When were you there? I was just a drunken fratboy during my time (1980 - 84). I have many fond memories of Chief Illini-wek, my favorite being a hypnotist at a party we had who convinced a friend that he was Chief Illini-wek, who then went on to reproduce the Chief's dance to a fault. It's sad, I think, but inevitable. It's not like we had many actual Illini Indians to draw from, so it was always a little bit of a white man's version of a Chief, although they always claimed they used genuine Native American dance moves in the routine. I hope that they find some way to replace it with something that captures a bit of the same spirit, as it always got the crowd fired up when Chief came out for his routine. I am almost tempted to fly out and see the last performance and yell out "CHIEF" one last time.
steve ex-expat | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 1:35 pm | #

Yeah, and there is nothing insulting about Little Black Sambo from Sambo's restaurant or the Frito Bandito from Frito Lay. What is the world coming too when you can't represent an ethnic group the way you want too?
Some people are just so sensitive, jeeze. snark.
karol | 02.16.07 - 1:35 pm | #

Anna Nicole: Paying attention now?

Posted by Mark Silva at 11:45 am CST

Most Americans believe the press has gone overboard in covering the recent death of pinup Anna Nicole Smith at the age of 39, the Pew Research Center has found. Fully 61 percent say the Smith story has been overcovered -- far more than saying that of any other recent story.

More Americans were paying attention to news about the war in Iraq.

Even so, Pew reports, "a sizable minority (11 percent) followed Smith’s death more closely than any of last week’s other top stories.

"This is on par with the number who cited news about the 2008 presidential candidates (13 percent) or the Super Bowl (11 percent) as the stories they followed most closely.''

The war in Iraq was the top story for the week of Feb. 5, with 30 percent following it most closely.

The are the main findings of Pew's first weekly "News Interest Index'', a new initiative by the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press.
http:// newsblogs.chicagotribune....e_pay.html#more
lauren | 02.16.07 - 1:36 pm | #

I'll say it again. Don't just make assertions, prove it. Prove to me that Sambo and Aunt Jemimah leave people proud of the heritage that AFrican-Americans have in America. It just isn't so. Don't just use PC words, PROVE YOUR ARGUMENT or we're no bette than the far-right Republicans who whine and yell but never prove their point.
John Aravosis | 02.16.07 - 1:38 pm | #

Even George Wallace could find some Uncle Tom Preachers to stand on the podium with him and say they liked segregation and "Negroes" needed to improve themselves and the whites had been really nice to them. Yes there are Native Americans who say they don't mind being objectified, some attention is better than nothing. I would rather see a building or a highway named for a real American hero, such as Leonard Pellitier Health Care Center or Ira Hayes Memorial Bridge, rather than some white boy strutting his stuff to a white audiance pretending he is a mythical chief of a mythical tribe, lets not add insult to injury by saying we are honoring the victims of our genecide by marginalizing them. Now that the buffalo are gone, let us build heath care centers on Pine Ridge and Rosebud Reservations and address the sequeli of White Domination, such as suicide, unemployment, addiction, domestic violence, teen pregnancy etc etc etc.
vistaguy | 02.16.07 - 1:38 pm | #

With all due respect, John, I would say there was a great imbalance between your love for your alma mater and its mascot and the indigenous people of this continent for the land that we murdered them for and otherwise stole. I think they may be just a tad sensitive about the destruction of their tribes, so if there's a small thing Americans can do to make them if not happy then at least a little bit happier, what's the point in fighting them over it?

Mascots are easily replaced. Entire populations aren't.
Ed Sikov | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 1:39 pm | #

I was in the Marching Chiefs at FSU and during the early 90's certain apparrel worn by the Drum Major and Majorettes was changed to reflect the apparrel worn by the actual Seminole Tribe of Florida. Including Chief Osceola (our "mascot"), whose costume is made by the Seminole Tribe of Florida.

We did go to Notre Dame in 1993 for a game and we were being persecuted for going to FSU because of the Seminole issue, so we held up a sheet at the game that said, "The Irish are a people, not a mascot." I think that some people actually figured it out...
Kris | 02.16.07 - 1:40 pm | #

I don't know about the legitimacy and accuracy of the Illini mascot, but Indians/Native Americans are still being belittled as mascot names all over. The Atlanta Braves and that ridiculous Tomahawk Chop anyone?

In Houston my daughter goes to Lamar High School, home of the Lamar Redskins. Their mascot is an Indian Brave (in a semi-ridiculous costume). I find it offensive and ironic since my family is involved with perpetuating Native American cultures/song/dance. It's especially ironic for the school since the "Lamar" the school is named after is "Mirabeau Lamar," "famous" Texan, mostly known for killing off the Indians here.

I mean, think about it, would there be schools with the George Washington Carver Brownskins? By and large Indian/Native American mascots are extremely offensive to the Native Americans. But we have a continuing history in this country of not caring about Native Americans.
C | 02.16.07 - 1:40 pm | #

So, you don't see the harm here, but that Snickers ad was out-of-bounds! Get a hold of yourself. Maybe Native Americans don't like their ceremonies displayed at halftimes just like some people don't like homophobic ads.
vince | 02.16.07 - 1:41 pm | #

Yeah, they're sensitive. Now prove their point. I don't make policy, I don't live life, based on what people claim versus what is true. Sometimes gays who complain are right, other times they're PC whiners. We owe it to our cause to define the difference.
John Aravosis | 02.16.07 - 1:41 pm | #

Given our country's effed-up treatment of the Native population, I'm a little shocked that John is okay with this.

I clicked on the link, and seriously, that photo is THE SAME AS BLACKFACE. I don't get how anyone can not see that. Please stop honoring me - you're killing me.
sue | 02.16.07 - 1:42 pm | #

sentimentalizing people is not honoring them. it's caricaturing them with a patronizing tone.
Anonymous | 02.16.07 - 1:43 pm | #

There is only one group of people who can say if the mascot was offensive. The Illini. If they say it is, it is.
dorothy | 02.16.07 - 1:16 pm | #

---

I agree. I mean, it's just a mascot to us. It's a heritage to them.
Bush Bites | 02.16.07 - 1:43 pm | #

I can't believe we're spending time on this subject when Anna Nichole is still dead...
TheOriginalLiz | 02.16.07 - 1:44 pm | #

You've got somewhat inconsistent sensitivies - you're hair-trigger for anything you think might relate to you, but then argue against anyone having the same reaction. Odd. Are you using this to try and prove that you don't overreact?
timbnyc | 02.16.07 - 1:45 pm | #

You're seriously asking me to prove that Native Americans have a point when they complain that their religious ceremonies and cultural traditions aren't appropriate subjects for American collegiate sports mascots? They're "PC whiners" rather than a legitimately wronged race of people who have been screwed over for centuries by a conquering force? Come on. Be serious.
Ed Sikov | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 1:46 pm | #

This leprechaun is ugly, but I can deal with it.

http://www.oddjack.com/gambling/ ..._leprechaun.jpg
erin | 02.16.07 - 1:46 pm | #

Hugh Blumenfeld, a folk singer from Connecticut got it right, in my opinion:

(and for what it's worth, I'm also from Illinois--though, proudly, NOT from Pekin, Illinois, where the high school team was once--and I'm SO not kidding--the Pekin Chinks)

Talking Hypothetical American Pastime Blues

I was hoping for another World Series
With the Indians vs. the Braves
I loved the tomahawk chops and the teepees
And the war whoops with the waves
But I'm really looking forward to the series
When we finally get to choose
Between the Detroit Negroes
And the fighting New York Jews
- I can see the headlines now: "Negroes Steal Opener,"
"Jews Trade Bonds for Late Draft Pick."

C'mon we'll all have a good time
It doesn't matter if you're White or a Goy
The right field stands'll be shouting "Yo!"
Echoed by a doleful "Oy!"
And everyone will wanna see Sambo
Do the moonwalk when Detroit scores
And at the 7th Inning Stretch the Jewboys
Will all get up and lead the Hora
- have a hot dog... have a cold beer.... havanagila, you know, whatever...

I'm sure it's gonna be a close contest
The competition's gonna be fierce
Between the vendors selling bagels and cream cheese
And the ones yelling "Fried Chicken here!"
And you can get one of those big hooded sweatshirts
That say "Detroit #1 No Jive"
I'll get one of those big plastic noses
And start chanting "Let's Go Tribes!"
- The marketing possibilities are endless -
yeah, I'm Jewish - what makes you ask?

Now you may say I'm crazy
And you may call me a boor
But it'd be a shame if sports team names
Can't have local color no more.
Yeah the JDL and the NAACP
Are gonna raise a fuss
But I wish they'd keep the politics out of baseball
And stop bothering the rest of us.
- Now all New York has to worry about is those San Francisco Fairies...
They blow it every time.
martinet | 02.16.07 - 1:46 pm | #

I agree with all of the good people above who think it's up to native americans to determine if it's offensive. Not you or me.

Imagine if it was the Fighting Homos. Do the math.
eastriver | 02.16.07 - 1:46 pm | #

I don't think any ethnic group should ever be used as a mascot. It is too often demeaning to the ethnic group, and even if not done in a demeaning way, it excludes people who are not in that ethnic group. Period.

I congratulate the U. of Illinois, but I would also do away with that SILLY phrase "the fighting Illini." To me "fighting Illini" is just plain absurd and insulting.
Hephaestion | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 1:46 pm | #

John,

Have you attended a powwow? Would you take that mascot guy in full regalia as your date to a powwow? If any school wants to "honor" the native population, then ask the native population for input. Don't reduce a complicated heritage (the costume, the makeup, the dance) to a charicature designed to entertain.

Sue
sue | 02.16.07 - 1:47 pm | #

I'm native South American. Inca indian, I guess if it were done respectful, I'm ok with it!!!

I have seen some the dance, for some reason it doesn't seem authentic, and Ive been too pow-wow celebrations...

I'm with Dorothy on this one, are there any Illini Indians that blog here??

We could use you input!!

+
High Crimes & Misdemeanors | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 1:48 pm | #

John, I am not sure what it is you are asking here, but let me try to explain how whites representing Indians might be a problem for Indians.
When you have a white person dressed and dancing around like an Indian, they do not dance the traditional dances, they dance as seen on TV. This misrepresents the Native American religion and culture; also, when a white person represents themselves as red, the audience- including impressionable children, see Natives as European looking. Remember the posters they used to have in the 70s of European looking women dressed in Indian clothing? The Native Woman does not look like that. She has beauty defined in her own right, not comparable to European beauty.
karol | 02.16.07 - 1:49 pm | #

John,

Some people didn't see the big deal with the Snickers ads that have you and I so upset.

The mascot needed to go.
Mark In Chicago | 02.16.07 - 1:50 pm | #

John,
This might be before your time, but just before I started at the U of I, they made Pekin High School (in Illinois) change their name and mascot. The town of Pekin was allegedly named that because if you drilled a hole all the way through the earth you would end up in Peking, China. So anyway, the school called itself the Pekin Chinks. Their mascots were a Chink and Chinkette, who would where pseudo-Chinese garb (I wish I was making this up). Eventually they changed their name to the Pekin Dragons. There were still guys walking around with Pekin Chinks sweatshirts and defending the old name when I was there in the early 80's. I think there was a kind of innocence about it, as I doubt there was anyone of Chinese descent in small town Midwest Pekin, Illinois and they probably didn't know any better, but I think continuing to wear the sweatshirt at U of I, which had a huge Asian student population at the time, was a bit offensive. I have no point here, I just remembered that.
steve ex-expat | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 1:51 pm | #

there are no Illini Indians! again, there are no Illini Indians. when the mascot was invented, as a caricature, there was no need for authenticity. for pete's sake, up until a few years ago the "official" garb of the mascot included a big GREEK letter "I" in the "chief's" face.

http://www.aimovement.org/ncrsm/...crsm/ index.html

maybe cigar store Indians are really statues (like the Washington monument), instead of trophies (like stuffed animals). what say you, John?
erizzle | 02.16.07 - 1:52 pm | #

Uh, settle down John. Nobody is able to prove an argument about whether a mascot is offensive, it is a personal opinion. Given that, the only viable questions are "Who is offended?", "Why?", and "Do we give a crap that they're offended?"

Since it's an opinion, mine is that I'm universally in favor of eliminating indian mascots if there's any objection in the native american community. You're taking the attitude that there's a developed tradition there, but if you're indifferent to the impact of that tradition on the group it's been stolen from, you're not much better than George Allen with his confederate flag and lynching rope (or the people of South Park with their cherished flag). I'm pretty sure you don't agree with all mascots (Washington Redskins, anyone?), so where do you want to draw the line.

Besides, The Illini suck. GO HAWKS!!
Crusty Dem | 02.16.07 - 1:52 pm | #

Former Speaker Dennis Hastert was a big defender of the Mascot! Strange bedfellows!
vistaguy | 02.16.07 - 1:52 pm | #

If everyone is expected to accept that the Snickers ad was harmful, you should not feel free to question whether or not this mascot causes similar bad feelings.
Dave | 02.16.07 - 1:53 pm | #

Two quick things: First, Chief Illiniwek wasn't a "mascot" in the traditional sense. He wasn't prancing around on the sidelines cheering in his little costume. And Second, there are still some Illini Indians around Peoria. They supported the University's use of the Illiniwek character until a few years ago, when they "withdrew support." But I don't think they ever actually opposed it.
Babs in Buffalo | 02.16.07 - 1:53 pm | #

Man, imagine if invaders from a differnt country slaughtered most of your kind, then started dressing and dancing around just like them.
Its like "oh look its hunderds of years later and we like you natives now!......where have you gone?"
Most of your blogged thoughts are inciteful, this one is not.
Mr.Mom | 02.16.07 - 1:54 pm | #

(and for what it's worth, I'm also from Illinois--though, proudly, NOT from Pekin, Illinois, where the high school team was once--and I'm SO not kidding--the Pekin Chinks)

martinet | 02.16.07 - 1:46 pm | #

-----

Not sure if it's still there, but in the 80s, they used to have a roller skating rink in town called the "XXXX Rink."

Logo had a guy with a coolie hat and a pony tail on roller skates.

I'm not kidding.
Bush Bites | 02.16.07 - 1:54 pm | #

John,
I am not, and neither are my people, a damn mascot. Honorable position my ass. I am sick of how you are Johnny on the spot when defending gay rights...good for you for doing that...but to turn around and make up Glenn Beck style excuses why it is okay if it is something you like to discriminate against others....who do find it offensive.........SHAME ON YOU !!!!! This Native American...not "Indian" you racist...is sick on being the last group that everyone can discriminate against and then we hear..."don't be so sensitive". You are no better than the other racist and bigots if you think it is okay to make someone from my race a mascot.

Chayna See
Proud member of the great Tsalagi nation and Echota tribe
Chayna | 02.16.07 - 1:54 pm | #

Is it respectful to portray a deeply meaningful religious ceremony at the center of an arena before a football game? Maybe the San Diego Padres should hold a respectful mock Catholic mass before their games? I'm sure no one would have any problems with that.
Adrift on the Cosmic Sea | 02.16.07 - 1:55 pm | #

John, you're comparing apples and oranges when you say that Greek immigrants to this country were discriminated against as if it matters. Indians were not immigrants, they were the first Americans!
astockton | 02.16.07 - 1:55 pm | #

Why do Native Americans accept being called Indians. Lakota Activist, Russell Means once said: "The only reason that we are called Indians is because some Honky got lost,and thought he was in India".

Well being Irish, I plan on doing something about stopping that Fighting Irish Mascot, if I ever manage to sober up.
Seamus | 02.16.07 - 1:56 pm | #

Its true how you get so enraged about gay issues then fail to be sensitive to others.
You gotta see how youve made an ass of yorself
Mr.Mom | 02.16.07 - 1:57 pm | #

You wouldn't be making a big deal out of this if you didn't go to school at the University of Illinois. I'm pretty sure you've never complained about anyone trying to get the pro football Redskins to change their name. You're allowing your pride and passion to lead to being selective about your beliefs- which reflects poorly on your credibility. You're no different from Rush Limbaugh and crazy right-wing christian nut jobs.
Ryan | 02.16.07 - 1:57 pm | #

Being a PROUD (I hail from the Red Lake Band in Minnesota) Native American, it makes me sick to see my culture being portrayed in this fashion. As a mascot. We are people. Not to mention, seeing white people ONCE AGAIN demeaning us and telling us to settle down when we want to be treated with respect. WE DON'T LIKE IT!

WE SEE IT AS DISRESPECTFUL, JOHN.

i bet you'd be having a fit if homosexuals were portrayed as stereotypes, or heaven forbid if a black person was made into a mascot. then it's an issue.

once again...native americans, the invisible race.
Professor Farnsworth | 02.16.07 - 1:58 pm | #

I went to a school so bad, our mascot was Don Rickles. He just stood in front of the crowd and insulted EVERYONE.

They also served martinis at the concession stand. No... wait... was that when I went to school, or when I went to Vegas in the 60s?

Nevermind.
BobbyJoe | 02.16.07 - 1:58 pm | #

John,
You keep saying people have to prove something to make it tru. Prove to us how this makes the native americans from Illinois proud. Just because you say it does, does not make it true. That works both ways.
Jerry | 02.16.07 - 1:59 pm | #

Seamus | 02.16.07 - 1:56 pm | #

some Natives don't mind saying Indian. It's just personal opinion. I prefer being called Native myself.
Professor Farnsworth | 02.16.07 - 1:59 pm | #

Come on John-

The Illini- didn't even do an Illini dance, it was a smattering of different dance and dress from different tribes. Reminds you of your heritage? What heritage? Are you native american? The first comment was right- if the Illini were offended that's what counts, you should know that.
Huck | 02.16.07 - 1:59 pm | #

Pekin, Indiana had, until recently, the "Chinks" as their high school mascot. Now they are the dragons.

I shit you not. Ain't the heartland great.
j swift | 02.16.07 - 1:59 pm | #

Sorry John, but I'm going to have to disagree with you. As a previous poster mentioned, some of us don't think the Snickers commercial was offensive. Also as you stated, its hard to compare 'sufferings', but I will submit that your status as a man of greek heritage does not make you a minority (racially anyway) and you don't have the personal perspective of minorities in this country. If the name is offensive to Native Americans, then I think the name should not remain. I found the snickers commercial hilarious, but I realize that it hurt some people, and in that respect, I understand why it was pulled.
JJ | 02.16.07 - 2:00 pm | #

With regard to returning the clothing (Native Americans don't refer to it as a "costume") that seems a little different. It does seem like it was a purchase. However, my opinion would vary depending upon what U of I planned to do with it. If they were going to just put it away in a box somewhere, they should consider returning it to the Native Americans. Interestingly enough, MANY Native Americans do not have ceremonial clothing like this (the items are frankly, too expensive for them).

The feathers are a different story. Not just because they are "special" however as John referred to them. Possession of eagle feathers (and any bird that isn't raised domestically or doesn't have a hunting season) is ILLEGAL. (Ridiculous as it sounds, that means if you keep the blue jay feathers found in your yard, you could be arrested). And are eagles still endangered? Adding to the penalty. To own the eagle feathers you have to be Native American or have special documents from some federal agency (Interior Dept., or Dept. of Ag I think). Illegal feathers and ceremonial items have been confiscated by the government at Pow Wows and other events before. (They sometimes get sold back to other individuals--and the appropriate paperwork comes with them)
C | 02.16.07 - 2:00 pm | #

I'm fighting to keep the apostrophe.
erin | 02.16.07 - 2:00 pm | #

BobbyJoe | 02.16.07 - 1:58 pm | #

-----

LOL
Bush Bites | 02.16.07 - 2:00 pm | #

Central Michigan University is the Chippewa's. In 1988, the Saginaw Chippewa Tribe passed a resolution in supporting CMU's mascot and name.
In 1989, CMU dropped the Fighting Chipp mascot and depiction from all University logos. CMU is still known as the Chippewa's and Fighting Chipps.
The Chippewa Tribe knows that CMU built Mt Pleasant, and CMU knows that without the Chippewas, Mt Pleasant would die. Seems the only ones with a problem at CMU is the NCAA.
NorskBamse | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 2:00 pm | #

John, you're portraying the archetype of the stupid liberal, hypersensitive of any slight on his own group and completely glib about offending anyone else. Stop and think about what you're saying.
Crusty Dem | 02.16.07 - 2:00 pm | #

I went to Eastern Michigan University in Ypsilanti, Michigan. We were, at one time, the Hurons, named after the tribe that donated land to built the U. The name obviously honored them. Then a few years ago, somebody thought it would be best to pre-emptively self-regulate and change the name to something "less offensive" before anyone actually complained. No Hurons compained, see? And what do we get? We're the EMU Emus now. Friggin Emu as our mascot. How's that for honoring your heritage. I think it's a real shame.
CC | 02.16.07 - 2:01 pm | #

You U of I alum. Get over the Chief! He is just a racist mascot for a lousy football team. U of I has plenty to be proud of. The Chief is not one of them.
david | 02.16.07 - 2:01 pm | #

I wonder if the Chief Illiniwek performance was in any way a depiction of a traditional Illinois Indian dance to traditional music in a traditional costume. I really would like to know that. John, do you know? As children we were led to believe it was. And people, please understand, the character really wasn't a "mascot." It was a performance.
Babs in Buffalo | 02.16.07 - 2:01 pm | #

A great deal of research has been published about the effects of the mascots on self image of native children; there are hundreds of statements from all of the tribal organizations that ask for an end to this practice of marginalization; there are compelling documentaries and video's directed by Indian organizations. At the center of all the protests Illinois University and the Cleveland Indians are cited as the most intolerable, unacceptable and distructive trivialization of the Native American experience. Stop the bastardization of Native American tradition for entrtainment of the victors.
vistaguy | 02.16.07 - 2:02 pm | #

vistaguy | 02.16.07 - 2:02 pm | #

wonderfully said. I was just going to post about this.

Being portrayed as a cartoon like figure, our culture bastardized to rev up a crowd at a god damn football game...really does mess up native's POV on their own culture.

native americans have very high suicide rates, especially on reservations.

and we have white people like john telling us to sit down and shut up. again..like always.

when do we ever get respect?
Professor Farnsworth | 02.16.07 - 2:04 pm | #

BREAKING NEWS..................

Anna Nichole Smiths condition hasn't changed.
stu | 02.16.07 - 2:05 pm | #

John,
In looking over the posts, I have to agree that the reason you are bothered by this is that you are a U of I alum. This takes a big chunk out of our sports history and collective memory. It's a sentimental thing that only those of us who went to Illinois would care about. I think you need to look at the broader picture. Some things don't stand the test of time and it's out with the old, in with the new. You have to walk a rather fine line to say that this mascot is offensive and this one isn't. There has been kind of a blanket decision made to stop the Indian/Native American co-opted themes for college sports. I can live with that. It's fair on the whole, even if it might not be fair individually.
steve ex-expat | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 2:06 pm | #

John -- you are usually on the mark, in my opinion at least. You missed it by a mile on this one. Others have said it as well or better than I could, so suffice to say I'm adding my voice to the chorus that is asking you to reconsider your position.

After all, rethinking, being introspective, and changing when we realize we're wrong is what separates us from the wacky right.
Ex-DCer | 02.16.07 - 2:06 pm | #

A few notes

1) The costume is not authentic.; it is Lakota, not one of the Illini tribes
2) The Dance is not authentic. At best, it is based off of early twentieth century fancy dancing.
3) The people performing the dance are Caucasian or (in two instances) Hispanic
4) Native American student organizations on campus find the chief a caricature of native Americans that project an offensive stereotype
5) The Peoria tribe (all that is life of the tribes of Illini) find the chief a caricature of native Americans that project an offensive stereotype.
6) Comparisons to the Seminole tribe, who receive money for the use of their image, are inappropriate. The Seminoles fought against settler, which is part of the reason the tribe still exists. The Seminole warrior hurling a spear into midfield has a vastly different symbolic meaning than a made up dance ascribed to a people who (with the exception of the Peoria tribe) were whipped out for their cooperation with settlers.
7) If you talked with more students at the Illinois universities, you would realize that the chief has nothing to do with honoring Illinois Native American heritage. Chief supporters arte overwhelming ignorant of the native American heritage of the region, and generally view native Americans as a caricature or a stereotype
Joshua Birk | 02.16.07 - 2:07 pm | #

I'm thinking we need a whole new set of "mascots" representing other peoples slaughtered and cheated by American imperialism: e.g. the Illinois Sunnis.
Karen, Mrs. Lloyd Richards | 02.16.07 - 2:07 pm | #

agree with your position on canning the mascots, but actually John Illinois and Illini are in fact one and the same - Illinois is the French word for the Illini - roughly, people from the Illini region.

Have you never wondered where the all those names that litter the midwest landscape came from

Des Plaines, Des Moines, Detroit, Champagne.
Chadman | 02.16.07 - 2:09 pm | #

Prof Farnsworth, I ask with all due respect: Is there no distinction to be made between a red-faced cartoon like mascot that revs up the team with tomawawk chops, and a dance and music performance? Doesn't intention count for anything?
Babs in Buffalo | 02.16.07 - 2:09 pm | #

Conoplastic...

Nice I like that Idea when can we expect the team to cum to town?
stu | 02.16.07 - 2:09 pm | #

Babs in Buffalo | 02.16.07 - 2:09 pm | #

we are not mascots.

shall we make an african american a mascot?
Professor Farnsworth | 02.16.07 - 2:10 pm | #

Sorry it’s off topic but...
Did I just hear a CNN reporter say “the longer that Anna Nicole Smith's remains remained unburied the more psychologically damaging it would be to her.”
I shit you not!
unrepentant expat | 02.16.07 - 2:10 pm | #

Erin,

It is a losing battle. I can not even get the Credit Card Companies or even most of the online Commerce sites to leave the O' in my last name. I think we may have a strong class action case against all those software makers who keep changing our names. I am now getting junk mail with the name change on them.

A question regarding this Chief IlliniWek. Was their ever such a person in the Illini tribe, or is it just a fictious name. The reason I ask is, if it is just a made up name, and their never was such a Chief, then that would make it hard to claim that the Chief Mascot or Character is their to honor the noble heritage of the tribe.
Seamus | 02.16.07 - 2:11 pm | #

OMG... I'm so pissed off.
As a condom, I find the whole USC Trojans offensive.
Rubbers of the world unite!!!
Durex | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 2:11 pm | #

i take my culture seriously. our traditions.

dude, they dont even NATIVES performing as mascots. they have white people doing it!

but yeah.....their intention is allright.
Professor Farnsworth | 02.16.07 - 2:11 pm | #

OK folks. I grew up in Oklahoma. My grandfather came there before statehood (which btw was only 1907). I am as white as they come but spent many a Saturday at pow wow. People seem to think the Native Americans are a dead culture. But they are not. When I was a kid in the 70's they were still referred to as savages in many history textbooks. Yet I would be sitting in class with Arapahoe, Cherokee and Apaches. Sure, they were offended but in those days it wasn't safe to say so. This whold argument is very similar to the one about the rebel flag. (It is just a tradition. Why should black people be offended?)
I don't think it is OK use words like fag, nigger, wop, chink, or gook. Native Americans are real live people. If it offends them then just stop it. That is not PC. That is granting human dignity to everyone. That is way more important than some sports mascot.
dorothy | 02.16.07 - 2:12 pm | #

Thank You Professor Farnsworth. I got pretty much "beaten up" when I tried to get a local highschool to drop their "Sachem" mascot. We did get the big nosed pygmy cartoon depiction of an "indian" painted over on the gym wall and ended the war path displays at foot ball games--but they kept their mascot and agreed to review the curriculum to add a little bit about the real American experience to appropriate classes. Since the teachers and principal were among the most outspoken racists, that was small victory.
vistaguy | 02.16.07 - 2:12 pm | #

me=durex with snark ;)
NorskBamse | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 2:12 pm | #

"This is getting ridiculous. The YMCA has a program that my girls and their dad was involved with. It was called Indian Princess. I wonder how long it will be before they have to change their name, too. Like the Fighting Illini, the Native Americans were treated with respect and they had a guy dressed in full Indian Chief mode and they had a beautiful ceremony at the beginning of every year.
2liberal4myowngood | 02.16.07 - 1:26 pm | "

So how would you feel if your YMCA had a program called Jewish Princess?
john | 02.16.07 - 2:13 pm | #

2liberal4myowngood | 02.16.07 - 1:26 pm | "

and there aren't "indian princesses"

another racist stereotype.
Professor Farnsworth | 02.16.07 - 2:14 pm | #

BREAKING NEWS.......................

Anna Nicole Smiths condition has changed, she is depressed that she is not buried yet.
stu | 02.16.07 - 2:14 pm | #

roflmhao @ stu
NorskBamse | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 2:15 pm | #

Seamus:

I get mail with Obrien, it hurts my eyes. I think it started with the postal service when they when to all block letters in caps. So we should start our class action suit against the government. Then maybe Google!

As for the Chief issue. There are plenty of people here to take that on.
erin | 02.16.07 - 2:15 pm | #

haha
Professor Farnsworth | 02.16.07 - 2:15 pm | #

Joshua Birk -- thank you for answering my questions. The lack of authenticity of the clothing and performance is very significant. And Prof, thank you for acknowledging that intention matters.
Babs in Buffalo | 02.16.07 - 2:15 pm | #

My little podunk hometown used the indigenous people's ancestory as mascots. We had two 'junior high schools' (commonly known these days as middle schools), and one high school. The junior high schools were the Braves and the Warriors. We all had to go to the same high school from the 10th grade on (yeah, three year high school). It was a big war between the two factions all through it.

The townspeople got a big kick out of it. The students suffered. I won't even begin to describe the stereotypes and humiliating discrimination that was promoted during our "pep assemblies".

And you thought the goddamn Snickers ads were bad. Good Dog.
scottinsf | 02.16.07 - 2:15 pm | #

while we are at it, the nursery rhyme, 1 little, 2 little, 3 little, indians is no better than little black sambo and when it goes back down to "No Little Indian Boys", it suggests the Final Solution.
vistaguy | 02.16.07 - 2:16 pm | #

Babs in Buffalo | 02.16.07 - 2:15 pm | #

*rolls eyes*

Intention doesn't count for squat, Babs, if it's drawn by the horse of ignorance and disregard for cultural importance.

USE of someone's CULTURE and RELIGION for an ENTERTAINMENT is disdainful and shameful and just plain WRONG.
I. Conoplastic | 02.16.07 - 2:11 pm | #
Professor Farnsworth | 02.16.07 - 2:17 pm | #

John,

So are you an alum of U of I Urbana/Champain campus? Cool. I did an MA and all course work for a PhD there between 1969-1973, in German Language/Lit. But I later converted to computer programming and technology. But I loved the school, the campus, the towns. I even stopped last summer on my way driving to Canada for a vacation to have breakfast with an old grad school friend who ended up heading up one of the major library departments as his career.
HeartlandLiberal | 02.16.07 - 2:17 pm | #

"and there aren't "indian princesses"
another racist stereotype.
Professor Farnsworth"

Actually, a good friend of mine is a Mohegan, and he always told me that his mother's Mohegan name translated as "Princess Butterfly."
Ed Sikov | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 2:17 pm | #

A good book on the subject is Dancing at Halftime by Carol Spindel--a prof at UofIllinois.

Interesting note: The fanatic Board of the UofI, who fought so hard to keep the "mascot," kept the UofIllinois Press from publishing it. The author had to go to the UofNew York Press to get it published. Feelings over this issue have been running high for years.

Frankly, I'm glad to see the mascot go (human beings shouldn't be "mascots," it seems to me). The really offensive Native-American mascot is Cleveland's: the big-nosed cartoon Indian. Now that's offensive.
Webster | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 2:17 pm | #

Prof, I'm sorry. i thought you said intention was alright -- I missed the snark alert.
Babs in Buffalo | 02.16.07 - 2:18 pm | #

I too am from Chicago and while I did not attend the U of I, many friends and family of mine did. With that said, I'm going to stand strongly opposite of John's oppinion. If you want an example of how to honor an Indian Tribe look at FSU. The school mascot was created with the Seminole tribe and while they have many chants that are traditionally viewed as derogatory towards Indians, these chants were implemented not only with the approval, but at the suggestion of the Seminole Tribe.

Chief Illiniwek served no purpose. He was derived for the sole purpose of enabling the team to actually have a mascot (many schools find themselves in this same spot). Chief Illiniwek promoted every possible stereotype of Native Americans that we have tried to get rid of. There was not one Native American group that stood by Illinois throughout this ordeal. For years Native Americans complained that Chief Illiniwek was offensive and asked Illinois to please remove him with the NCAA finally taking a stand on this issue.

However, here's my take and it probably explains a lot of my political views too. Who the hell am I to tell Native Americans what's offensive to them and what's not? I'm not gay, but John says he doesn't like the use of the term "fag" in any context and I respect that. When Ozzie Guillen called Jay Marriotti a "fag" I just viewed it as him calling Marrioti a name no different than calling him an idiot (which he is), but the GLBT community took offense and asked Ozzie to apologize. I can sympathize with that given the underlying meaning of the term fag. They viewed it as a shot at their community. This is the exact same situation we have here. The Native Americans have repeatedly asked the University to stop what they are doing and have always been blown off. Why couldn't the U of I just respect the Native Americans wishes? You want an Indian mascot go talk to them about how to do it and how to do it right so as to avoid these problems in the future. It's not like they haven't been willing to allow mascots of this nature in the past or present.
stats guy | 02.16.07 - 2:18 pm | #

If the true intention was to honor and present a tribute to the tribe then why don't they feel honored? Are they being hyper-sensitive or is there something in the performance on the football field that reads as being insulting to them?
This reminds me of the Drag performer Shirley Q. Liqour who is performs in Black makeup. He claims he is doing a tribute to the Black women he knows and loves. But a Black woman had his show closed down in protest because she thought it was a modern day minstral show degrading and stereotyping Black women. I viewed his performances as a show of respect. The character Shirley is always the heroine and always gets the better of everone else. It makes me love the power of the Black woman even more...but alas, a Black woman was deeply offended. I really don't understand why?
Dula | 02.16.07 - 2:19 pm | #

Ed Sikov | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 2:17 pm | #

http://www.bluecorncomics.com/pr...om/ princess.htm

http://www.hanksville.org/ storyt...Pocahontas.html
Professor Farnsworth | 02.16.07 - 2:20 pm | #

Intention counts the first time. If you are not aware you are offending someone and have no hurtful intentions a gentle request to stop will suffice. After you have been told you are offending a culture you can longer be seen as having good intentions when you continue.
dorothy | 02.16.07 - 2:20 pm | #

Prof. Farns, I used to get a kick out of it when one of my students would come up to me and say they came from an Indian Princess linage. At first I would get angry and point out there were no monarchies so therefore there were no princesses, but so many believed it was true I just gave up.
karol | 02.16.07 - 2:20 pm | #

I. Conoplastic | 02.16.07 - 2:19 pm
I never realized that - how awful that kids still use that to this day.
TheOriginalLiz | 02.16.07 - 2:20 pm | #

OT... the 'terrrorists' are using karl rove's strategy:

The American troops here are stretched thin. They are not only physically fighting the various diverse elements of the insurgency, but also a battle of perception.

"Those terrorist groups have begun to take advantage of a perception of unwarranted fear that is now becoming actual fear. As we try to drive a wedge between the insurgents and the people, the insurgents are trying to drive a wedge between the people and the government," said Col. David Sutherland, commander of the Army's 3rd Brigade, 1st Cavalry Division.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/me...quba/ index.html

so... we're teaching them about how well fear works.

.
Soundboy_Jeff | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 2:20 pm | #

Hey how about a new mascot...

The Fighting Fat-Assed Hastert's
That should be a scary enough mascot for any school ;-)
NorskBamse | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 2:21 pm | #

Just sayin, Prof. Maybe something gets lost in the translation?
Ed Sikov | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 2:21 pm | #

I think "shows of respect" should be judged in the eyes of the respected.
Bush Bites | 02.16.07 - 2:21 pm | #

Soundboy_Jeff | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 2:20 pm
I guess it all goes back to who the real terrorists are.
TheOriginalLiz | 02.16.07 - 2:21 pm | #

karol | 02.16.07 - 2:20 pm | #

oh my god, i still get so many white people telling me they are descended from a cherokee princess.
Professor Farnsworth | 02.16.07 - 2:22 pm | #

Well, Dorothy, I think that's a good distinction "intention counts the first time." Please remember that my comments are based on my memories as a small child in Urbana.
Babs in Buffalo | 02.16.07 - 2:22 pm | #

Ed Sikov | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 2:21 pm | #

it's a stereotype. that's all.
Professor Farnsworth | 02.16.07 - 2:22 pm | #

Webster

What about the Atlanta Braves, and all that Tomakawk Chop stuff. It is just vile, and Ted Turner is supposed to be a Progressive. Him, and Jane used to sit there and join in the Tomahawk chop. I guess we all have blind spots.
Seamus | 02.16.07 - 2:22 pm | #

Illinois is the French word for the Illini - roughly, people from the Illini region.

Have you never wondered where the all those names that litter the midwest landscape came from

Des Plaines, Des Moines, Detroit, Champagne.
Chadman | 02.16.07 - 2:09 pm | #

------

I didn't know that, though I knew Chicago was based on a Native American word for "smelly onion."
Bush Bites | 02.16.07 - 2:23 pm | #

Seamus | 02.16.07 - 2:22 pm | #

we aren't perfect. john here is a liberal and look at his take on Native issues.

it just shows how natives are still viewed in this country.
Professor Farnsworth | 02.16.07 - 2:23 pm | #

I'd like to be in the locker room of the San Fran Queers, myself =)
but not so much the Northern Idaho Whiteskins...

but about the topic john is being inconsistent with his outrage at the snickers ad vs the issue, and I think that all person with Illini blood should get to vote on whether or not it is offensive, and if they say it is not then they should be able to dictate terms to the school, since it is 'honoring' them and all. personally i think races/ethnicities are inappropriate for mascots. seattle gooks? compton niggers? dallas beaners, etc etc
war pigs | 02.16.07 - 2:23 pm | #

We were the Patriots and I guess I should find that offensive since I am a decendent of the first white americans.
stu | 02.16.07 - 2:25 pm | #

Webster

Agree--totally. However, the Cleveland cartoon "Indian" is beyond the pale when it comes to offensive.
Webster | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 2:25 pm | #

Now wait a min...

You all bitch about John's viewpoint, but in the same breath, you use a hatefull term (native) to describe first-nations people...
NorskBamse | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 2:25 pm | #

"oh my god, i still get so many white people telling me they are descended from a cherokee princess.
"
Farns, it is ignorance passed down from one generation to the next.
karol | 02.16.07 - 2:26 pm | #

Agree--totally. However, the Cleveland cartoon "Indian" is beyond the pale when it comes to offensive.
Webster | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 2:25 pm | #

------

Yeah, that's the worst. I can't believe they get away with that.
Bush Bites | 02.16.07 - 2:26 pm | #

NorskBamse | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 2:25 pm | #

um....I am native and prefer to be called that.

many natives do.
Professor Farnsworth | 02.16.07 - 2:26 pm | #

USE of someone's CULTURE and RELIGION for an ENTERTAINMENT is disdainful and shameful and just plain WRONG.

See you at the flag pole.
afafkd | 02.16.07 - 2:27 pm | #

My grandfather used to say that there was an Algonquin "princess" in our family tree. My father did have some physical features that suggested that there might have been some native endowment. BUT my family was very proud of and knowledgable about its geneology, but knew absolutely nothing more than to say, an "Algonquin princess" I concluded that if they didnt know her name and history and had to make her acceptable by giving her nobility, she was probably not truely welcomed or honored by my family--and I am sorry for that. I would love to have known more about that invisible ancestor.
vistaguy | 02.16.07 - 2:27 pm | #

My mother is a historian with a specialty in Native American history. I have used the term Native for years. If that is offensive I want someone to inform me so I can use the appropriate term.
dorothy | 02.16.07 - 2:27 pm | #

(not helpful, and sort of teasing in a shitty way but I'll say it anyway)

Those Indians are acting like a bunch of big ol' girls.
mo2 | 02.16.07 - 2:28 pm | #

So looka here... it's all just more witchcraft, Satanism and worse:

Word History: A giant strutting bird leading a cheer at the homecoming game may seem a far cry from a witch fashioning a charm or spell, but these two figures are related historically in the development of the word mascot. Mascot came into English as a borrowing of the French word mascotte, meaning "mascot, charm." The English word is first recorded in 1881 shortly after the French word, itself first recorded in 1867, was popularized by the opera La Mascotte, performed in December 1880. The French word in turn came from the Provençal word mascoto, "piece of witchcraft, charm, amulet," a feminine diminutive of masco, "witch." This word can probably be traced back to Medieval Latin masca, "witch, specter." Thus for all their apparent differences, yesterday's witches and today's cuddly mascots can be seen in the same light, as agents working their respective magic to bring about a desired outcome.
Gregory Lyons | 02.16.07 - 2:28 pm | #

NorskBamse, I am a red woman, sometimes Native American, sometimes Indian- but always American. I think I have taken the different names and made them my own so the power to hurt is no longer there.
karol | 02.16.07 - 2:29 pm | #

mo2,
OOOOOoooooo.....

You're BAD and very very cheeky!
Gregory Lyons | 02.16.07 - 2:30 pm | #

Funny how people always make claims about having royalty in their backgrounds.

Same with people who claim they were something else in a previous life.

Nobody says, "I was a janitor in a previous life......"
Bush Bites | 02.16.07 - 2:30 pm | #

How far do we have to go back in time to claim a land. I think first humans wondered off the African Continent so who is really native and to what extent.
stu | 02.16.07 - 2:31 pm | #

I remember reading that many native American tribes were so democratic that they didn't have a chief as we who grew up watching horse operas understand the term.

This made it difficult for the whites who wanted to at least observe the formality of making a treaty with the natives, even if they had little or no intention of abiding by it. So they just arbitrarily picked one of the tribe's adult men to "sign" the treaty as chief.
astockton | 02.16.07 - 2:31 pm | #

Professor Farnsworth

That doesn't sound like the name of an Indian Prince. Just a joke.

At least John is willing to state his case and allow all the dissent that has been posted. He is a good man who loves his college day memories.

So was there ever an actual Illini Tribal Chief by that name. If not, then it can not be considered a sincere cultural tribute, any more than Chief Nokahoma, who celebrates when the Braves hit a Home Run. That one, to me, is one of the most demeaning of all sports mascots.
Seamus | 02.16.07 - 2:31 pm | #

May I suggest you play Bruce's "Glory Days" and get on with your life...
nogo postal | 02.16.07 - 2:31 pm | #

I just graduated with my Ph.D. from the University of Illinois in December and I found the Chief totally offensive and embarrassing, not as a native American, but as a member of the university community. Based on my 5+ years there, I just assumed the Chief was a rich white frat boy from the Chicago suburbs dancing around like a jack@$$. I found nothing honorable about it. In the end, it was business decision for UIUC. Even before the ruling from the NCAA, the university was losing out on academic grants because of the chief. But the prospect of handicapping academic research didn't make them drop the Chief; they dropped it because of the prospect of lost revenue from post-season NCAA sporting events.
Presto | 02.16.07 - 2:32 pm | #

"shame in ancestry of "mere indians" as if the rank and file of Native culture is beneath a white to claim as ancestors.
"

It goes deeper then that. It shows ignorance of one's history and people.
karol | 02.16.07 - 2:32 pm | #

As a college basketball fan, I loved the 1988-89 "Flying" Illini team and their uniform. I still want to buy replicas of those long shorts with the mascot's face on the sides. I'll keep looking on eBay, I guess.
Blackacre | 02.16.07 - 2:32 pm | #

So here's the thing: What do we do when some native peoples take offense to these "mascots" but others don't? What do we do when some want to be called native, others "Native Americans." Some, I am told, even prefer "American Indian." Some people of color prefer "black" -- some "African American." I genuinely love and respect all people (except George Bush)and their cultures and histories and am intersted in peoples' histories. Occasionaly, one gives offense unknowingly.
Babs in Buffalo | 02.16.07 - 2:33 pm | #

bush bites>>>>>> I was an asshole in a previous life and I am still one. I find the shitty kitty mascot offensive.
stu | 02.16.07 - 2:33 pm | #

This is a bit OT, but I'm with Karol. I've taken the word "faggot" as an empowering word. People who say faggot may not know the history of burning people like me at the stake, but I do, and I take the word at its full meaning, which reminds me that there are plenty of folks out there who would be fine with getting back to the old ways.
Gregory Lyons | 02.16.07 - 2:33 pm | #

John I totally disagree with you and I am really surprised that you take this point of view. Can a gay person be respectfully portrayed as a school mascot?

The very act of creating a mascot is a display of power over another group. Native Americans were annialated, and years later we think we can "honor" them by using them as a mascot? We're belittling them - WHETHER OR NOT our portrayl is done respectfully or as a caricature. Using them this way gives us a warm fuzzy feeling, like we're somehow restoring their dignity, but we're not. We're equating them to all the other mascots out there. A destroyed civilization of people is in the same league as a hornet, bull, mermaid, refrigerator - or whatever symbol other schools choose to celebrate on a Friday night with parading cheerleaders and drunk fans all around them?

This is like a German team, a couple of hundred years from now, using a Jewish mascot. They could present this mascot as tastefully and respectful as possible, but it still doesn't matter. The act, by its very nature, mocks them. Erect a memorial, encourage people to talk about it, pray about the sins of your country, but for god's sake don't make them a mascot.

I certainly don't want to be anybody's mascot - even if they tried to portrya me in the best light possible. My dignity and self-worth belongs to no one else but me.
Lostw | 02.16.07 - 2:34 pm | #

Here's another memory from U of I. At one point (around 1983), they tried to introduce a typical mascot a basketball game. They called him the O-B Bird (for orange and blue, the team colors). When the poor joe in that O-B bird costume came running out on the court at the first timeout, I have never seen such hostility. He was basically booed off the court by halftime of his first performance. I don't know how it's possible, but you could see the face of humiliation on that costumed bird as he walked off the court. Maybe it's time to give him another chance.
steve ex-expat | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 2:34 pm | #

I. Conoplastic - 2:31 pm,
You must be new here.
mo2 | 02.16.07 - 2:35 pm | #

Now wait a min...

You all bitch about John's viewpoint, but in the same breath, you use a hatefull term (native) to describe first-nations people...
NorskBamse | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 2:25 pm |
-----------------------------------
You are an annoying appologist for John sometimes aren't you?

I like John's blog. I think John is usually a nice, pleasant guy. Sometimes he is embarrassingly wrong. I don't expect him to admit it nor do I expect you to quit kissing his ass.
scottinsf | 02.16.07 - 2:36 pm | #

There is First-Nations' blood in my family. We were told we were of the Blackfoot Tribe. That part of our life was lost and forgotten for whatever reason. Is there a way for UoI to honor the Illini without mocking?
NorskBamse | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 2:36 pm | #

Walter Jones is on c-span.

Isn't he the Freedom Fries guy?
Bush Bites | 02.16.07 - 2:37 pm | #

"Is there a way for UoI to honor the Illini without mocking?
"

Yes, but it would require going to the people and listening.
karol | 02.16.07 - 2:38 pm | #

and scottinsf, as for me kissing John's ass...

You do not know me, so making that type of statement is both ignorant and counterproductive.

If at anytime in the future you wish to debate a subject in an adult manner, please feel free to address me. If you find that you cannot refrain from such sophmoric comments, please ignore my posts.
NorskBamse | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 2:39 pm | #

Karol, going to people and listening is a good thing!
Babs in Buffalo | 02.16.07 - 2:39 pm | #

And yeah, I get that some native Americans didn't like it. But that doesn't mean they're right. First step, you have the right to complain. Second step, you need to prove your point.

Seems awfully callous from a guy who got worked up over a candy bar ad.
Irascible | 02.16.07 - 2:39 pm | #

Honor Illini? How about a library, museum, endowed chair, scholarship. Lots of ways.
dorothy | 02.16.07 - 2:39 pm | #

Walter Jones (R-Gave up on Bush): "let's pass the resolution and God Bless our troops."
Bush Bites | 02.16.07 - 2:40 pm | #

The Peoria Tribe of Indians of Oklahoma say they are the Illini Indians. What is their opinion?
How do you spell anonymous | 02.16.07 - 2:41 pm | #

scottinsf,

I enjoy John's blog, too. The amazing thing about him is that when he's wrong, he is so often spectacularly, passionately wrong.

This post is an excellent example of passion without reasoning.
Crusty Dem | 02.16.07 - 2:41 pm | #

steve ex-expat
I was at U of I 81-85... what was your major?
angel | 02.16.07 - 2:41 pm | #

I Conoplastic

So your way of protesting, against a perceived smear of one class of people, is to come on here and smear another class of people. Congratulations Sir, you are the founding father of Bigots against Bigotry.
Seamus | 02.16.07 - 2:41 pm | #

Someone else from UIUC.

I, too, found the Chief embarassing and stupid. It epitomized to me the frat-guy "I don't care who I insult" attitude so prevalent among members of a certain age, class, and sex.

Most of the undergrads of UIUC seem to be from the suburbs of Chicago and I have to say, I found a sizeable number of them racist, smug, non-cosmopolitan, and intolerant of people from other cultures. Those of us in grad school teaching them just gritted our teeth and wanted to smack their foolish little faces.
tzs | 02.16.07 - 2:42 pm | #

I have read that the Peoria Tribe used to support Chief Illini, but withdrew that support several years ago.
Babs in Buffalo | 02.16.07 - 2:43 pm | #

I am Umskapi Pikuni from the great Blackfeet Nation of Montana, one of the four bands of the Blackfoot Confederacy.

John, I'm really disappointed. You expect people to bend over backwards to defend and support you when there is something that you and other gay men determine is demeaning, yet you won't grant the same to others?

I haven't read through all of the posts cause I'm so damn mad I had to post before I lost steam.

How dare you decide what is and isn't demeaning or demoralizing to Native Peoples. If we say it is demeaning, then stand beside us. Just as we stand beside you. I didn't think the first commercial by Snickers was that bad, but I took your word without question that gay men found it offensive. After seeing the others, I could understand how you felt. But, at the moment, you didn't need my empathy, you needed my support which I freely gave. I trusted you to know what felt demeaning to you and others in your community. I expect the same from you.

Judy
Judy from Montana | 02.16.07 - 2:43 pm | #

tzs | 02.16.07 - 2:42 pm | #

------

I could see that.
Bush Bites | 02.16.07 - 2:43 pm | #

NorskBamse | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 2:39 pm |
----------------------------
Oh please. I'm calling it as it is. If you don't like it sweetie then maybe this is not the blog for you.

I am SOOOO sorry I offended you. sniff sniff
scottinsf | 02.16.07 - 2:43 pm | #

Bush Bites

So when is Walter Jones going to thank France for trying to prevent us from creating Bush's Iraqmire.
Seamus | 02.16.07 - 2:44 pm | #

Ah, here's another. When my high school, Huron High School in Ann Arbor, MI was built in the late 60's, they decided to let the students come up with a name for the mascot by a vote. Several names were proposed, including the River Rats (as the school was near the Huron River, I think). Of course, give high school kids something to do and you know the results. I believe they are still called the River Rats. We had a very cool little rat insignia on our gym bags, and I'm sorry I lost mine over the years. I doubt that the local river rats will ever be offended.
steve ex-expat | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 2:44 pm | #

River Rats is a great name.

Every school near a river should pick that up.
Bush Bites | 02.16.07 - 2:45 pm | #

john: for the record, while i have a great deal of fondness and admiration for you - i think on this one you're completely and totally wrong. if some native americans are offended, then it is by definition offensive. that should be the end of the story and the practice.
scooter in brooklyn | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 2:46 pm | #

So what is the singular of Illini? Would that be Illinus? Good Grief, Charlie Brown!

GO BLUE!
Rick | 02.16.07 - 2:46 pm | #

I'm an Illinois alumni, too John. I used to support the Chief. I used to wear an orange shirt that said "Save the Chief." I used to sneer at the protestors.

But they're right. The mascot is insulting, and mocking. Its a WHITE SUBURBAN GUY playing dress-up! And running around like a fool!

How does that honor anyone?

Furthermore, it makes my alma mater look like a racist, bigoted school, rather than the proud, challenging, and modern institution that it is.

Furthermore, it hurts our teams, especially basketball, ability to recruit. We just lost the #1 prospect in the country to Indiana, which is coached by a guy who turned the Illinois coaching job down because of the Chief. Kelvin Sampson is part Native American. And the racism that is embodied in the Chief can be used against the school, because it makes the school look ignorant and racist.

Its high time the Chief was laid to rest. And, I'm pretty sure that being from a group of people that suffered the worst genocide in recorded history gives you a lot of leeway to make some demands on how your people are "honored".
Jerry | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 2:46 pm | #

The Braves were called the Braves becuase one of the early investors was high up in Tammany Hall, I think they called him a sachem. The Cleveland Indians were called that because there was a very popular first baseman in local baseball called the Indian (whom, I guessing, was an Indian). Doesn't change the debate any, just interesting that in each case it was sort of a second-generation naming.
timbnyc | 02.16.07 - 2:48 pm | #

This is wrong. The Native American's have beautiful rituals, and dress and dance with far deeper meaning than we could ever imagine.
erin | 02.16.07 - 2:48 pm | #

Scottinsf,
You cannot offend me. In order to offend me, I must care about the opinion of a person, and you do not qualify.
As for being here at AmBlog, I intend to stay, with or without your blessing.
Rest assured that this is the last I will reply to your comments as I firmly believe in "not feeding the trolls".
NorskBamse | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 2:48 pm | #

worth repeating:

I trusted you to know what felt demeaning to you and others in your community. I expect the same from you.
- Judy
mo2 | 02.16.07 - 2:49 pm | #

Angel,
Math and computer science. I hesitate to tell you much more, as I was quite a different guy back then. Drunken, obnoxious fratboy, I nearly flunked out 4 times.
steve ex-expat | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 2:49 pm | #

Seamus | 02.16.07 - 2:31 pm | #

lol I am actually a female. :lol
Professor Farnsworth | 02.16.07 - 2:50 pm | #

I disagree with John on this matter. I agree with him on the Snickers ad. Those who wish to keep using that Gay Bashing Ad as a weapon to beat John into submission are also bashing Gays who do not even have the same stand on the Illini subject as John has. Sardonic or not, it is a very tawdry and offensive way to make a point.
Seamus | 02.16.07 - 2:51 pm | #

Bout frickin time. Chief Illiniwek's dance was one of the most offensive things I have ever witnessed.
patroclus | 02.16.07 - 2:52 pm | #

Two words: WHO CARES?

Silly college mascots, etc. You are an adult now.

And I know of what I speak -- my father got his PhD from U of Illinois and our family lived there for three years, while he was getting it. Big Deal.
Shell | 02.16.07 - 2:52 pm | #

Steve ex pat -- Computer Science in 1981? Did you solder your own machines?
mo2 | 02.16.07 - 2:52 pm | #

All I can say, John, is get over it. Some of us Illinois alumni are pleased they have retired the mascot. He's a relic from a time we have grown away from, I hope. UIUC, '92, BS, BA

But this is a symptom of a phenomenon I have observed several times: White gays expect the world to bend over backwards to their sensetivities, but seem rather blind to the sensetivities of racial minorities.
metalsguy | 02.16.07 - 2:53 pm | #

I have been in Computer Science since 1979. And no, it wasn't an abacus.
Shell | 02.16.07 - 2:54 pm | #

steve ex-expat | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 2:49 pm | #

Ahhh....A fellow "North of Green" person. (I'm a EE class of 94).

John, I don't know what U of I you went to, but the chief being respected? You gotta be kidding me. There were plenty of the drunken LAS frat boys that if they had their way, the Chief would be doing the tomahawk chop (and I have actually seen a few do it)

I think I am going to go get a snickers bar.

NOTE FROM JOHN: But he doesn't do the Tomahawk chop because the university won't let the chief do disrespectful things or take on a disrespectful persona. You just proved my point that this representation is different from the representation that racists or whatever would choose.

Edited By Siteowner
Deuce | 02.16.07 - 2:54 pm | #

Professor Farnsworth

Well that is very different. A female, you say. In that case, I can alway dream, that one day I can descend from an Indian Princess.
Seamus | 02.16.07 - 2:54 pm | #

Seamus | 02.16.07 - 2:54 pm | #

what can i say...I like Futurama. :-p
Professor Farnsworth | 02.16.07 - 2:56 pm | #

"Steve ex pat -- Computer Science in 1981? Did you solder your own machines?"

mo2,
That's funny. We actually used a lot of punch cards. It was awful. The cards aren't numbered in any way, so you couldn't let them get out of order. Each card had one line of code. You'd run them through the card reader and get a printout and pull out old ones and put in new ones as you modified your code. It was quite a big deal when we could start using those big floppy discs in some of our classes.
steve ex-expat | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 2:56 pm | #

NorskBamse | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 2:48 pm |
---------------------------------
I've been called a troll here on Ablog for about 3 years now. Nothing new.
scottinsf | 02.16.07 - 2:57 pm | #

John, I usually like your blog but you are so out of line here.
What if there was an Illinois Negroes or Spics or Chinks? or Fags? You'd be up in arms if it were fags. You're such a hypocrite.
MoxieHart | 02.16.07 - 3:00 pm | #

The Republics were trying to have some great sound bite moment with a Texas Congressman who was a POW in Viet Nam talking against the resolution.
Bush Bites | 02.16.07 - 3:00 pm | #

Farns, it is ignorance passed down from one generation to the next.
karol | 02.16.07 - 2:26 pm | #

of course, I know. they really believe that they are descended from it. just shows they really don't put much effort into researching their heritage.
Professor Farnsworth | 02.16.07 - 3:00 pm | #

For a guy that goes apeshit whenever anyone messes with a gay person anywhere, in any way shape or form, you're sure getting selfish and intolerant when it involves the fact that you went to college there.

Would you accept a dancing gay guy if the people it was a mascot for said they were honoring the contributions of gays after slaughtering them 400 years ago?

Sorry but you're being a bit of a hypocrite.

And the Spartans weren't the most admirable society. Unless you were born perfect.
srgtick | 02.16.07 - 3:00 pm | #

Why, truth hurts?
metalsguy | 02.16.07 - 3:01 pm | #

A simple question. Was this Chief named after a real person or not. Who knows the answer of how the name was selected. If it is a fictional name, then it can not be a historical and cultural tribute. Surely someone who went to the school must be able to answer that simple inquiry.
Seamus | 02.16.07 - 3:01 pm | #

I. Conoplastic | 02.16.07 - 3:00 pm | #

yeah...that happens when your views are poorly received.
Professor Farnsworth | 02.16.07 - 3:01 pm | #

John,
I cannot tell you how happy it makes me to see this:

UPDATE: It seems some of our readers disagree with me. Feel free to join the heated discussion in our comments section here.

A much better reaction to disagreement than some I have seen in the past.
Very cool.

NOTE FROM JOHN: Pete, If you look at other heated disagreements I've had in the past with some of my commenters, it's almost always (if not always) because those people chose to attack me personally, rather than simply disagreeing politely. I love disagreement, I loathe assholes and don't tolerate them anywhere in life.

Edited By Siteowner
Pete | 02.16.07 - 3:02 pm | #

So?

When's the next Pittsburgh Popes game?
Bush Bites | 02.16.07 - 3:02 pm | #

Here, let me put it into perspective for some of you who still don't get it.

John, this one's for you. I want to know just how offended you feel after reading this.

The University of San Francisco adopts a new mascot and name for it's teams, "The Groomed Gays", GG for short. They choose an outfit, take your pick of any of the stereotypes Hollywood and others have portrayed of gays, and audition for mascots. They choose someone who's not gay, knows no gays, doesn't want to know any gays and has no clue about the lifestyle and problems the gay community battles daily. He shows up on the field, does a stereotypical mimicry of gay men all the while shouting cheers and using all the hateful slurs and stupid stereotypes that bring your blood to boil. You and others launch a protest, but supporters say "We did it in honor of gay people".

Tell me how honored you feel? Yeah, that's how I feel. Tell me how to explain to the various children in my life who KNOW what a full eagle headdress signifies and why some white guy with halloween-y makeup is wearing such a thing and racing around doing stupid dances that NO REAL CHIEF would EVER do.

Judy, one pissed off Blackfeet Woman
Judy from Montana | 02.16.07 - 3:02 pm | #

Uh, the supporters would all be drunk too.
Bush Bites | 02.16.07 - 3:04 pm | #

A few things to think about:

1. While you might have thought the mascot was done respectfully; he was still a stereotype created by and for non-Indians.

2. It does not matter if a "chief" sold the outfit to the school. Since the Seventies, there has been a war between the traditional and non-traditional people in Indian Country, and I use the word "war" in it's literal sense--people have died; lots of people have died (see Matthiessen's "In the Spirit of Crazy Horse" and Hendricks' "The Unquiet Grave"). The war is rooted in the exploitation of the traditional people by the non-traditional people and whites. Your "chief" was obviously non-traditional. The whole oufit, not just the feathers, is sacred to many traditionals. The fact that someone would sell such an object would be very offensive to them.

3. As for Spartans, if your great grandfather had survived genocide, your grandfather denied the right to vote, and you father had been shipped off to a BIA school where he was beaten if he spoke Greek. You'd be offended when your oppressors paraded a stereotypical Spartan in front of you too.

4. It might seem like a small thing to you, but if you lived in impoverished conditions where due to official neglect the lifespan of your people was 44. You'd celebrate any victory you could get.

5. It's a fucking mascot.
patriotboy | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 3:04 pm | #

Judy,
Is there a good link to research the Blackfeet tribes? I would like to find out more about our lost family heritage. Thanks
NorskBamse | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 3:04 pm | #

They've started the roll call vote.
erin | 02.16.07 - 3:06 pm | #

Vote under way.
Bush Bites | 02.16.07 - 3:06 pm | #

Erin

I predict 257 votes in favor of the resolution.
Seamus | 02.16.07 - 3:07 pm | #

seamus...I've been reading up on Chief Illiniwek...there's nothing that I've found that says he is named after a real native. He originated when some dude in 1926 thought it would be cool to have a Native American war dance during halftime. The expression Illiniwek (meaning "the complete human being - the strong, agile human body, and the indomitable human spirit").

I'm afraid I don't know too much about this specific controversy.
Professor Farnsworth | 02.16.07 - 3:07 pm | #

Sorry, John, but you are wrong. As an anthropologist who has spent more than 20 years working with Native Americans (and whose son is native), Chief Illiniwek is inherently racist. There is no difference between his halftime show and the old-fashioned minstrel shows. By the way, the remnants of the Illini are alive and well, if not exactly thriving, in northeast Oklahoma under the tribal name Peoria.
DrDick | 02.16.07 - 3:09 pm | #

aha, named after the Illini tribe.

having said that...look at the mascot...he's a complete cartoon.
Professor Farnsworth | 02.16.07 - 3:10 pm | #

There are so many more important issues that stupid sports team mascots, doh!
nostrafarious | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 3:10 pm | #

John Aravosis | 02.16.07 - 1:35 pm | #

"homage" to gays in the Snicker's commercial? Are you KIDDING ME???!!!

Why should anyone pay homage to anyone's private sexual activity or lifestyle or orientation, I have no idea. If the NFL players were disgusted by an accidental homosexual kiss by two hetero guys, why is that a surprise?

I understand the point about the violence...but homage? Really?

Wikipedia: Homage is generally used in modern English to mean any public show of respect to someone to whom one feels indebted.
DMG | 02.16.07 - 3:10 pm | #

nostrafarious | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 3:10 pm | #

then please go discuss them in another thread.
Professor Farnsworth | 02.16.07 - 3:11 pm | #

For the record, I thought the Snickers ad was hilarious (though not the supplementary stuff on the Snickers website), and I think the mascot should have been kicked out years ago.
Ed Sikov | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 3:11 pm | #

There are so many more important issues that stupid sports team mascots, doh!
nostrafarious | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 3:10 pm |

Yes, and when we discuss them they will be related to the appropriate article. Please enjoy leaving.
srgtick | 02.16.07 - 3:13 pm | #

Again, good book on the controversy:

Dancing at Halftime, Carol Spidel, prof at UofI.

Puts it all in perspective.
Webster | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 3:14 pm | #

Professor Farnsworth

What surprises me is that no one who graduated from that school has provided an answer to me question. I would expect that if your are going to claim that you are deeply attached to that Chief tradition, you would be expected to at least know the facts about the Chief's name, and if their was ever such a person. Do you agree with my point, that if the person never existed, then it is nonsense to claim that it is a tribute?.

Of course I can't begin to tell you of how complimented I alway feel by ths sight of the Lucky Charms celebration of my heritage.
Seamus | 02.16.07 - 3:14 pm | #

Seamus, I say it passes.
erin | 02.16.07 - 3:14 pm | #

Ed Sikov | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 3:11 pm | #

I thought the Snickers ads were in very poor taste. THe ones on the website were downright offensive.

I just dont see why John refuses to understand
Professor Farnsworth | 02.16.07 - 3:15 pm | #

[Of course I can't begin to tell you of how complimented I alway feel by ths sight of the Lucky Charms celebration of my heritage.
Seamus | 02.16.07 - 3:14 pm | #]

The Saint Patrick's day cards pay a lovely tribute to our heritage as well...not.
erin | 02.16.07 - 3:16 pm | #

Erin

257 for, would mean it passed. That is what I was predicting.
Seamus | 02.16.07 - 3:16 pm | #

Seamus | 02.16.07 - 3:14 pm | #

that's why it seems like they don't have much an attachment to the mascot itself. they dont even care to know the history.
Professor Farnsworth | 02.16.07 - 3:16 pm | #

Seamus,

You have got it exactly. I went there for four years, and I have no idea if the Chief is a real person or not. I have no idea if the dance he does is authentic or not. No one there really cares....the stuff about "honoring" the illini is something people who want to kee the chief have made up.....there is absolutely no attempt made to educate the students about native americans or their traditions.
Deuce | 02.16.07 - 3:17 pm | #

there is absolutely no attempt made to educate the students about native americans or their traditions.
Deuce | 02.16.07 - 3:17 pm | #

Spot on, Deuce.
metalsguy | 02.16.07 - 3:19 pm | #

I suspect that Mr. Aravosis is beginning to understand the issue in a new light. You'll get further in enlightening him if you stop calling him names.
Ed Sikov | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 3:20 pm | #

Well John,

At least you must be glad to see how many people are now admitting that you were right about the Snickers Ad. why else would they keep using it to try and get you to change your views on the Chief issue.
Seamus | 02.16.07 - 3:22 pm | #

Seamus I knew that's what you meant.

And as others have noted, your point about all of the alumni of Illinois being not knowing the history of the mascot is ridiculous.

I graduated from the University of Maryland. The terrapins, or Testudo which is a Diamondback turtle is our mascot.

It was taken from snapping turtles found in the nearby Chesapeake Bay.

The Chesapeake Bay was named after a Native American tribe.
erin | 02.16.07 - 3:23 pm | #

I went to Miami of Ohio, home of the Redskins. Now the Red Hawks. The local tribes were fine with this -- which I have to admit feels a little racist -- so, as a result, so was I. When they changed it to the Red Hawks, I can't say that I wasn't disappointed.
Vic Arpeggio | 02.16.07 - 3:25 pm | #

I. Conoplastic - 3:23 pm

I'm guessing no one. Pretty sure the point's been well made.
It'sAllSoSurreal | 02.16.07 - 3:26 pm | #

To whomever wrote: "This is getting ridiculous." Well, interventions are generally uncomfortable but they are necessary. Racism/Sexism/Homophobia and other isms are institutionalized in this 'White supremacist capitalist patriarchy' (to borrow from bell hooks whose books although specific to the African American experience would be useful for those of you who are not attune to the problematic politics of this Native American mascot issue and other representational issues) and therefore ubiquitious. I would hardly think that you would think it ridiculous if you were the victim.

I am very dissapointed to read this post from Mr. Aravosis on this blog since it is the home of so much useful info. And while I appreciate the update on the post with regards to the dissenters in the comments I was thrown off balance by your your kneejerk dismissal of Illini mascot critics concerns. I participated in the Snickers e-mail campaign after reading about it here and I was dissapointed with their response (which, if I remember correctly lacked any sort of apology). There is a stubborness that many of us (corporate entities or individuals) have towards acknowledging the narrowness of our perspectives and our deep set prejudices. You would be well served to divorce yourself from your affectionate familiarity with the mascot and to understand that just because you are incapable of recognizing the problematics of the situation doesn't mean that the groups rallying against it are wrong.

This is pure and simple objectivation and I agree with whomemever commented that it was akin to minstelsy. I think the poster and the commenters who don't understand what's troubling about ethnic groups (esp. the Native Americans who remain victims of a racist genocidal campaign) as mascots should do some reading on the subject. There are a host of academic books on the subject of race, spectatorship and exploitation. People of color continually make their case, although you claim they haven't, it's up to you to tune in and exercise some iniative. If for example there was a representational concern expressed by disability rights activists that I didn't fully understand, I wouldn't rail that they need to make their case, I would educate myself fully on the subject and try my best step outside my privilege.
jb | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 3:26 pm | #

I suspect that Mr. Aravosis is beginning to understand the issue in a new light. You'll get further in enlightening him if you stop calling him names.
Ed Sikov | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 3:20 pm |
----------------------------------
Ed, you know that is a crock of poo. John is right and will never admit otherwise.
scottinsf | 02.16.07 - 3:30 pm | #

Here is a nice summary of the mascot debate.

http://www.tolerance.org/news/ar..._tol.jsp? id=168

Here are some links to information about my people, the Umskapi Pikuni of Montana.

The Tribal Council site is being updated and not very informational at this time. If you need any other information, email me and I'll try to help. ndndancer@gmail.com

Judy
Judy from Montana | 02.16.07 - 3:30 pm | #

have wondered about the "outfit" the chief wears.
always seemed to much great plains natives to me, rather than mississippi valley natives.

anyway, GOOOOOOOO GATORZZZZZZZZZ!!
f$u sux!
so does the teenie, tiny ten!!
Anonymous | 02.16.07 - 3:31 pm | #

It has always irked me to see, around Thanksgiving, photos in the paper of local schoolkids dressed in fake Indian drag with face paint. I wonder what the real Indian kids think of this? Have their opinions ever been sought? Doubt it.

IMHO, white people like to co-opt Indian regalia (proper term--not costume) b/c it's so showy. Nobody would want to knock off the regalia if it was jeans and t-shirts.

There are several schools universities and high schools in Oklahoma who still cling to their racist stereotypes, e.g., the Tecumseh Savages. Supporters say it honors the Indians. I say it demeans and separates them and harms the children.

Tecumseh was a great orator, far from a savage.
JudyLou | 02.16.07 - 3:31 pm | #

"UPDATE: It seems some of our readers disagree with me. Feel free to join the heated discussion in our comments section here."

LOL !!!

SOME ???

Yeah, and Mrs. O'Leary's cow started a LITTLE fire.
Anonymous | 02.16.07 - 3:32 pm | #

scottinsf: He hasn't zapped you yet. That's something to notice and hopefully appreciate, isn't it?
Ed Sikov | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 3:33 pm | #

heck....

http://www.blackfeetcountry.com/.../ arealinks.html
Judy from Montana | 02.16.07 - 3:34 pm | #

I. Conoplastic - 3:28 pm

I stand corrected. Have fun, I guess.
It'sAllSoSurreal | 02.16.07 - 3:35 pm | #

Erin,

Strangely enough, I knew what a Terrapin Turtle was, even though I was raised in in a Pine Forest in the Hills of Tipperary by a Pack of Wolf Hounds.

Some thing that they never taught me: What the hell is a Tar Heel?.
Seamus | 02.16.07 - 3:37 pm | #

maybe they don't feel thier image is to be used for whatever purpose by the people who slaughtered them.
Anonymous | 02.16.07 - 3:39 pm | #

As an alumnus of another Big 11 school, Penn State, I decry the lost tradition of the Fightin' Illini. This was a great salute to their original inhabitants and always reminded me that this isn't completely our country. Other nations, like the Illini, were here long before us Europeans.

The University of Illinois never appeared to me to be exploitative. In fact I had the clear impression they were honoring this tribe and keeping that heritage alive.

It's one thing for a Free Shoes University to mock American Indians with their tomahock chop or run some stud and his horse around the field in a loincloth ridiculing their warriors (though they were good eye candy), but the Fightin' Illini and their dignified mascot was different.

Of course he often got beaten by our ferocious mountain lion but it was always good sport and the tradition of the real Fightin' Illini will be missed.
John Morgan | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 3:42 pm | #

Ed Sikov

Who are you saying has been banned from posting on here?.
Seamus | 02.16.07 - 3:42 pm | #

John, I guess "offensive" is in the eye of the beholder.

American Indians are offended by sports teams mascots in the likeness of the American Indians, regardless of how noble the masot may appear to you or others.

Gay people are offended by Snickers ads, anti-gay comments among other things.

Right or wrong if you want people to respect what offends you, you should also respect what may offend others. Regardless of how petty you or others may think something is.
Anonymous | 02.16.07 - 3:42 pm | #

Ed Sikov | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 3:33 pm |
---------------------------
I think John knows that debate on this issue is interesting,even if most people disagree with his views.

I definitely appreciate that he allows people to disagree with him without banning them. Yeah, he gets pissy but he still has one of the best blogs out there.
scottinsf | 02.16.07 - 3:43 pm | #

Tar Heel - NC produced a lot of tar (pine trees), you could identify a NC by the tar on his heels -- ergo, Tar Heel.

Or that's the way I understood it, I could be wrong.
Anonymous | 02.16.07 - 3:43 pm | #

I guess I'd say it's like putting on blackface when you're not black. You could conceivably be trying to portray an African American in a dignified mannter, but that doesn't mean it's right.
tireiron chef | 02.16.07 - 3:43 pm | #

Could be worse. My university's mascot is a hen.
escapee | 02.16.07 - 3:44 pm | #

Seamous:

I worked at UNC Chapel Hill for four years.

The main explanation is traced to the Civil War. Tar came from the burning of longleaf pines. North Carolinian soldiers threated to put tar on the heels of fleeing soldiers to make them stick and Gen. Robert E. Lee said God Bless the Tar Heel boys."

That's the short story.

I think my ancestors were located near a peat bog...given my fair skin.
erin | 02.16.07 - 3:45 pm | #

Isn't UVA the hokeys? I thought a hokey was a castrated turkey ... I'd think that would be sort of disturbing.
TheOriginalLiz | 02.16.07 - 3:45 pm | #

John Morgan,

You sound like you know a great deal about The Chief. Tell us more about him. Did he exist, or is he a fictional character. How long has your school being in the Big Ten.
Seamus | 02.16.07 - 3:46 pm | #

correction - peet.
erin | 02.16.07 - 3:46 pm | #

Seamus: I was quoting an email I just received from someone who can't post him- or herself. I thought he/she made a valid point, that's all.
Ed Sikov | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 3:47 pm | #

Irregardless of the mascot's offensive nature, it would probably behoove a few commenters to understand that "The state is named for the Illinois River which was named by French explorers after the indigenous Illiniwek people, a consortium of Algonquian tribes that thrived in the area. The word Illiniwek means "tribe of superior men." per wiki
Distaste For Dissent | 02.16.07 - 3:48 pm | #

John, why are you being piggish? It's really a very simple issue. Let's reduce it to the basics:
1. These mascots makes people feel bad.
2. It is mean to make people feel bad.
3. It is easy and kind to change a mascot so that people will no longer feel bad.

Really. It's really just that simple. You don't even need to look at all the hoity-toity scholarly explanations. It's really simple.

I agree that it would be a positive gesture to say that you have rethought the issue, and that you understand others' positions on it.
Tiffany PinkDog | 02.16.07 - 3:48 pm | #

The origin of the word mascot may give us some insight as to why this is insulting to some:

Mascot came into English as a borrowing of the French word mascotte, meaning “mascot, charm.” The English word is first recorded in 1881 shortly after the French word, itself first recorded in 1867, was popularized by the opera La Mascotte, performed in December 1880. The French word in turn came from the Provençal word mascoto, “piece of witchcraft, charm, amulet,” a feminine diminutive of masco, “witch.” This word can probably be traced back to Medieval Latin masca, “witch, specter.” Thus for all their apparent differences, yesterday's witches and today's cuddly mascots can be seen in the same light, as agents working their respective magic to bring about a desired outcome.

It is easy for me to understand why it is an issue for the Native Americans to be portrayed as a lucky charm or amulet by ancestors of the same culture that committed genocide against the them and that stripped those who survived the genocide of their independence.

Also, I it my guess that portrayal of the Native Americans at the half-time show is as about as accurate as the black-faced white 'mammy' performers were of black culture. This could also be insulting.
Gary SF | Homepage | 02.16.07 - 3:49 pm | #

At my high school we were the Beavers.
Anonymous | 02.16.07 - 3:50 pm | #

Anonymous | 02.16.07 - 3:50 pm | #

I won't touch that one!
Gary SF | 02.16.07 - 3:51 pm | #

John, don't get me wrong. I think the Fighting Illini is respectful as is the North Dakota's team name the "Fighting Sioux" which calls to attention to the American Indians who lived in that region in the 1800's.

The thing is we are not American Indians so we can't know how they feel, just as whites can't know how Afro-Americans feel, just like hetero's can't know how gay's feel.

If people think that it is silly to ban mascots or force college or sports teams to change their names due to their offensive nature towards American Indians, why then aren't there any sports teams such as the New York Jews, The Chicago Negroes, The Minnesota Crackers?
Anonymous | 02.16.07 - 3:51 pm | #

Marquette University dropped their name of Marquette Warriors, after it was deemed to be offensive, and they won a NCAA Baskeball title under that name. Where there is a will, there is a way. It makes it hard to berate the Southern States for clinging to their outdated Battle Flag symbols, if we are still going to cling to our own.
Seamus | 02.16.07 - 3:53 pm | #

There is also a religious issue. Eagle feathers, facepaint and so forth have religious meaning in Indian culture, and to parade them around an athletic field is like the Saints "mascot" carrying crosses or the elements of communion.
R Ketterer | 02.16.07 - 3:54 pm | #

The illinwek were a confederation of six tribes. I do not believe the confederation ever had a “chief”. The Mascot, as devised in the 1920, is not based off of any historical figure.
Joshua Birk | 02.16.07 - 3:55 pm | #

Actually, Anonymous, that's a good question. If mascots like the Illini are meant to be offensive, then why didn't we have teams like the Jews or the Crackers? Or perhaps we did and I'm not aware, but slur words we find for all nationalities and races. And yes, I do think this debate is useful and healthy, when people don't become assholes - that's why I posed this. Don't confuse disagreeing with being an asshole, they're two totally different things. The first is most welcome, the second will likely get you banned, and has. I tolerate dissent, I don't tolerate freaks.
John Aravosis | 02.16.07 - 3:55 pm | #

John, my teenage daughter is an athlete of Greek descent at a high school with an Indian mascot. I find it offensive that her team gets referred to as "the Indians." She isn't a Native American, and no amount of "let's pretend" or blonde cheerleaders chanting "We're the Indians!" will make her one.

People here who support the Indian mascot mouth the platitudes of "respect" for the memory of the Native Americans who are no longer in this area. It's about as respectful as naming your new subdivision "Deer Park," when you've driven all the wildlife out. This new "respect" is something that never mattered to them before, as incredibly racist pictures in past yearbooks at our school will show.

Some of us tried to retire that mascot a few years ago, but finally stopped when the issue was becoming too divisive in the community. While the sports fans paid lip service to fair play on the field, those who spoke out against the mascot found nails put in their tires.

In most towns or schools there is usually someone of Native American descent (or alleged Native descent) who gets brought out to say they think an Indian mascot is fine and makes them feel proud. And many Native Americans feel that there are so many more serious issues in their communities that mascot issues are a low priority.

However, my research several years ago found that of the Native Americans who were interested enough in discussing Indian mascot to bring that dialogue to the Internet, there were something like 100 individual web pages condemning Indian mascots, and only two -- TWO -- web pages by Native Americans who supported having Indian mascots.

Schools are for education. Encouraging racial and ethnic stereotypes is not my idea of good educational values.
CarolM | 02.16.07 - 3:57 pm | #

I have long believed that the use of Native American nicknames by colleges and universities is an inappropriate misappropriation of cultural identity in which an institution co-opts a people's heritage and history for its own (and often financial) gain. I completed my undergraduate work at Central Michigan University, which still uses "Chippewas" as its nickname. I fought against the nickname while at CMU, and several students have continued to do so since my departure. I found that lobbying against the continued use of the "Chippewas" nickname presented several unique challenges.

First, the university no longer permits the use of any Native American imagery, and there is no "Chippewas" mascot. Second, although the leadership of the local Saginaw Chippewa Indian Tribe has never publicly opposed the nickname, for a long time the university made no real attempt to gauge the local Tribe's support. Perhaps more importantly, the university has never offered any justification for why the local Tribe should be permitted to speak on behalf of all Chippewa and Ojibwe. Third, most of the students who have organized against the nickname at CMU are white, which is not surprising given student body demographics. Finally, the Board of Trustees and the previous university president made it very clear that they believed the locus of decision-making power regarding the nickname resides with them, not with the student body.

This final observation has been especially frustrating since the student body, acting alone, adopted the nickname in the 1950s. At the time, the students and the athletic coach who brought the proposal before the student council offered clear arguments for choosing the nickname, with the overriding reason was the potential exploitation of Native American imagery and stereotypes. The nickname's proponents have engaged in a perverse revision of history, arguing that the nickname was chosen to honor the local Tribe -- it was not -- and that its use fosters appreciation for Native American culture. Although the University does sponsor a number of Native American programs, it certainly could do more.

A former director of the Native American programming office was actually required to agree to a gag order regarding the nickname as a condition for taking the job. And the university community's fondness for using a bastardized form of the "Chippewas" name -- Chips -- seems at odds with the promotion of respect for the Chippewa people. The nickname's supporters insist that the absence of pejorative visual imagery excuses the nickname's continued use, ignoring assertions that their manufactured defenses can never be convincingly divorced from the circumstances surrounding the nickname's adoption. Their favored tactic was to ignore history and lazily accuse us of political correctness.

Although we have been vilified as members of the "PC Police," we have not been alone in our criticism of the university. Nearly 20 years ago the Michigan Civil Rights Commission recommended that Michigan's public schools abandon Native American nicknames and mascots. Indeed, The previous university president's own 1991 advisory council recommended, by a vote of 13 to 7, to change the nickname, but the president and the Board ignored the report.

Regarding the "Fighting Ilini," I would note that there is no such thing as the "Illini" tribe. Also, the "exhausting dance" John references is an imitation of Native American ceremonial dance-it is not authentic. Just because you say that a dance intends to honor someone doesn't mean they are honored to see it performed.

Finally, equating Illini or any Native American mascot/nickname with "Spartans" is wholly fallacious. The Spartan nickname is historical and does not capture any past or ongoing American social dynamic. Indian nicknames/mascots, on the other hand, are the product of conscious choices made by white people to selectively appropriate elements of an American minority culture, and then use those elements however they saw fit. First we took their land. And then we took their names, and for what?

A fucking basketball halftime show.
Jeff | 02.16.07 - 4:03 pm | #

For those who don't like wiki as a source, try here
Distaste For Dissent | 02.16.07 - 4:05 pm | #

John, I wasn't trying to be an asshole and do not believe I am a so called freak for what I said.
Anonymous | 02.16.07 - 4:06 pm | #

John,

I love your blog. But to your question, the mascots aren't *meant* to be offensive, but they still are offensive. The Snickers commercial wasn't meant to offend, either. I'm guessing it was there to sell candy, but it was still offensive.

Sue
sue | 02.16.07 - 4:06 pm | #

Let's see...

In order of importance...

Steelers--OK.
Penguins--OK.
Red Rose Army--OK.
Pirates--OK.
The Bath Rugby Kid--OK and REALLY cool. A new kid photo caption winner every week.
Red Wings--OK.
Saints--OK.
Gunners--iffy, but not offensive.
Phillies--it's like the Illini situation, only not.

Whew!

In the clear.
comsympinko | 02.16.07 - 4:06 pm | #

If mascots like the I

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